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From: Mark Schmitt erie3319 AT gmail DOT com
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2021 08:39:03 -0400
Subject: Re: [REPOST] (erielack) K5 / K5a / K5b and the Heavy Rebuild Program
"Nikon_November_2018_335.jpg" - image/jpeg, 4608x3456 (24bit)

Schuyler,

Save yourself the trouble, I have photos of mine with the boxes.

Mark

On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 10:38 PM Paul Tupaczewski
wrote:

>
> From: Schuyler Larrabee
> Date: Sat, Aug 7, 2021, 4:41 PM
> Subject: RE: [REPOST] (erielack) K5 / K5a / K5b and the Heavy Rebuild
> Program
> To: EL Mail List
> Cc:
>
>
> Tony,
>
> Sorry to tell you I think you don't have a true "1950 Era ERIE" Key K5.. I
> got mine out to check and mine has pilot-mounted pumps with shields, and a
> long, six-wheeled truck tender which is a representation of the
> substitution of S3 tenders onto the K-class engines as they got replacement
> tenders. You've seen the BLW photo of an 0-8-0 with a curved-collar
> tender? That tender was applied to the S3 class and I believe (don't shoot
> me if this is not correct) those USRA tenders were applied to the new
> 0-8-0s,
>
> I now realize I should have gotten out the 1941 version to look at. I'd
> bet that somebody got the box covers swapped around, and somebody's got a
> 1951 version with a 1941 box cover.
>
> I might be able to get out the '41 version tomorrow, or Monday. We're off
> to the beach tomorrow. 😊
>
> Schuyler
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WILLIAM HORN
> Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2021 1:30 PM
> To: EL Mail List
> Subject: Re: [REPOST] (erielack) K5 / K5a / K5b and the Heavy Rebuild
> Program
>
> I have a question about the Key Models Erie K-5a. It states that it is a
> K-5a. It has a Boxpox set of main drivers. It does NOT have the air pumps
> on the front pilot area, rather on the side. It has a short box type
> tender with original USRA tender trucks which I am sure is wrong. Were any
> of the prototypes configured as I have described the (locomotive part) of
> model?
>
> Tony
>
> > On 08/07/2021 12:13 PM Paul Tupaczewski wrote:
> >
> >
> > From: Raymond Wetzel
> > Date: Sat, Aug 7, 2021, 11:48 AM
> > Subject: Re: (erielack) K5 / K5a / K5b and the Heavy Rebuild Program
> > To: erielack@lists.railfan.net
> >
> >
> >
> > I might add, that in addition to the modifications to the K5a loco's
> > in the early '40's that are mentioned here, the Delta trailing truck
> > is not one of them as these engines (#2935 through 2944) were built
> > with Delta trucks in
> > 1923 (in place of the Cole-Scoville trailing truck) -- even as is pointed
> > out later here -- unless said statement needs clarification. It's said
> > below that there are statements that are partially incorrect or
> > misleading (in Dan's book?), but it's not stated what they are. In
> > 1941, the K5a's were given boosters on their Delta trailing trucks.
> > But getting back to the K5's (#2915 through #2924), it may be
> > beneficial to know that these were built by Baldwin Locomotive Works
> > -- per Westing and Stauffer book, ERIE POWER, while Erie #2925 through
> > # 2934 were built by the Richmond Works of the American Locomotive
> Company.
> >
> > As for "The Heavy Rebuild" program it's been stated below as correct,
> > that the modifications engines #2935 through #2944 received starting
> > in mid 1940 did not change the loco's classes from K5 to K5a, as they
> > were already built as Class K5a in 1923 (by Baldwin Locomotive Works).
> > Not all of the K5a engines received boxpok drivers and those that did,
> > didn't get all their spoked drivers replaced (example: 2935), while
> others (example:
> > #2939) did; the #2944 received all three driver sets replaced with
> > boxpox, as can be seen in Bob Collins' book, Erie Railroad Trackside
> > (Morning Sun
> > Books) clearly on page 36, just one of many shots he included of this
> > loco The #2935 only received the center and rear driver sets as
> > boxpok. While
> > #2945 (the :"jinxed" #2917) received a set of boxpok center drivers it
> > remained a K5; no further updating was done.
> >
> > An example of the cross-compound air pumps being relocated to the
> > front deck can be seen in Bob Collin's photo in the book, ERIE
> > RAILROAD In Color (Morning Sun Books) by David R. Sweetland on page
> > 48, where they can't be missed behind their shields and support
> > brackets. Although many other improvements of the modernization
> > program aren't readily seen externally, combined they all make a vast
> improvement in these locomotives'
> > performance. A Standard stoker was but one of them although some of
> > these K5a's were equipped later with Duplex stokers. Hardly
> > noticeable but still in open view is the modification of the Baker
> > valve gear these locos were originally built with to new Baker valve
> > gear (w/McGill Multirod precision needle bearings). One fine
> > improvement given to the K5a's was roller bearings fitted to the front
> > and rear engine trucks, likely an influence by the Timken "Four Aces"
> > (#1111) which the Erie tried out on 56 runs (half of them freight and
> half passenger) betw!
> > een Hornell and Marion between 1930 and 1933 before the Northern
> > Pacific bought this engine. Most noticeable was the large 6-wheel
> > tenders many were given, such as behind the #2944. .
> >
> > Ray Wetzel .
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ejredden@frontiernet.net
> > To: erielack
> > Sent: Fri, Aug 6, 2021 8:43 pm
> > Subject: (erielack) K5 / K5a / K5b and the Heavy Rebuild Program
> >
> >
> > Quoting Randy Brown: "The placement of two air pumps on the pilot
> > deck was one of several items in changing a K5 to a K5a. Others
> > included a cast engine bed and (highly visible) a cast "Delta"
> > trailing truck and various different drivers in varying combinations
> > of spoked and BoxPok (pronounced "Box-Spoke" to reflect its structure)
> > and in some cases a 12-wheel, long tender. This all happened in the
> > early 1940s.Dan's book explains this in some detail."
> > These statements are partially incorrect, or misleading. They
> > conflate the as-built differences between K5, K5a and K5b, with the
> > "Heavy Rebuild Program" that the Erie initiated in late 1940.
> > Briefly:K5 (2915 - 2934) were built in 1919, with the Cole trailing
> > truck, which all of them carried through till scrapping in the early
> > 1950s. These engines remained class K5, to the end.
> > K5a (2935-2944) were built in 1923, with the Delta trailing truck,
> > which all of them carried through till scrapping in the early 1950s.
> > These engines remained class K5a, to the end.
> > K5b (2960) built in 1926, also with the Delta trailing truck, carried
> > through till scrapping. Biernacki's book states that this single
> > engine was considered a K5a after the Heavy Rebuild in August 1940.
> > The Heavy Rebuild changed the frames of the locos, and (most
> > noticeably), placed two sets of cross-compound air pumps on the front
> deck, behind
> > sheetmetal shields. It also included varying numbers of Boxpok
> drivers,
> > and various other less-visible improvements. This DID NOT change the
> > classification of the locos from K5 to K5a. The first of these
> > rebuilds was to K5b 2960, in August 1940. The second was K5a 2942, in
> > November 1940, and the third to K5a 2940, in December of that year.
> > The records to which I have access, end after December 1940, so I don't
> have specific
> > rebuild dates for the remainder. Biernacki's book shows the remainder
> of
> > the K5a class going through the Program in the early 1940s. He also
> > shows that subsequently, three of the K5 class, 2930, 2934, and 2945
> > went through the Program, by 1946. (Note that K5 2945 is the former
> > 2917, which was renumbered due to its propensity for involvement in
> serious wrecks).
> > Sources: Biernacki book on Erie Heavy Pacifics; Monthly listing of
> > locos rebuilt at Hornell, 1929-1940 (my collection); Staufer book of
> > Erie loco classification drawings; My Dad's observations, as passed on to
> me.
> > JR
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
> > http://EL-List.railfan.net/
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> >
> >
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> >
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